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4/28/2010 5:00 AM

	Alexnaldo
275 posts
www.automato.org

Main competitor for VWG

Hi Guys,

Yesterday, my friend sent me a link : http://www.zkoss.org/ with the title "Main competitor for VWG"

After one day trying and using I need to say : Yes. It is a very beatiful Ajax Framework.

Currently, run Java code in the same way VWG run C# code. The framework is Open Source, so I think that in a near future will run C# code. It is the main diference. EmptyClient, Server Centric, etc. and many others things are same.

VWG have more features ( I prefer to say "properties" ) but not all work as expected and for me is key. Do you want "the best when works" OR "the best of possible" ?. It is the key for beautiful Framework.

While living in the shadow of WinForms, VWG will be "the best when works".

I love VWG, but I would like to see it growing without WinForms in the head. The VWG Technology is wonderful.

PS: I'm using VWG and will continue using for a long time.

Regards,
Alexnaldo Santos

4/28/2010 7:08 AM

	itzik.spitzen
1663 posts

Re: Main competitor for VWG

Modified By itzik.spitzen on 4/28/2010 10:11:28 AM)

Hi Alexnaldo,

Thank you for the kind words and for pointing this project out for us. It's indeed a very neat and well known Ajax Framework.

Gizmox point of view is quite different comparing to other declarative based languages (such as XUL, XAML and others) which are rather a complementary and enhancements of the traditional web development rather than an adoption of another paradigm to develop web.

Visual WebGui addresses a much broader and a more pretentious target, which is extending the *full set* of the mature desktop development paradigms, with which developers could easily create very rich applications, to the web. I would say, to provide an object oriented, drag & drop like development with the richest set of events, making it possible to have at least the set of tools you would have with desktop (WinForms) development. It's seamlessly taking care of the presentation layers and client/server communication using a unique (patented) pipeline.

The last year+ of development efforts at Gizmox combined, among other targets, extending the basic WinForms model and actually resulted with a total new product in the sense that on top of the basic nice and quick WinForms development, you can now completely extend, customize and configure the application.

While previous versions (until 6.3) aimed mainly towards WinForms compatibility, the upcoming (already beta2) 6.4 version is a much extended form of development, providing a good starting point with desktop development but much extending it leveraging the web benefits and addressing web challenges. WinForms compatibility is very important for us in order to support both scenarios of WinForms and VB 6.0 migration to the web using VWG and immigration of developers and skills from the richest desktop development environments to the web. However, bear in mind that although we maintain "backwards" compatibility to WinForms, about 50% of v6.4 are extensions on top of WinForms and extensions for the web!

It is not one of VWG goals to complement the traditional web development with components and tools (such as jQuery, Dojo, ExtJS and others or even component vendors such as Telerik, Infragistics, ComponentOne, Syncfusion and others), but providing an end-to-end solution for development and runtime with which you can use proven desktop development paradigms to create the richest, best performing and fully scalable application using a single layer of object oriented code and event driven development only which enables combining other technologies as needed (i.e. we have added jQuery support within 6.4).

As for the maturity question of VWG and the "not all features are functional" claim, while that is probably true for a partly featured 6.3 pre-release it will not persist with the upcoming official 6.4 release version.

I hope this explains some about VWG targets and goals ;-)

Kind Regards,
Itzik Spitzen

4/28/2010 11:13 AM

	Alexnaldo
275 posts
www.automato.org

Re: Main competitor for VWG

Hi Itzik,

You know about VWG Technology but don't know about Zk Technology.

I think you didn't looked with fresh eyes the Zk Framework.

"...complementary and enhancements of the traditional web development". Zk is not only it.
"..unique (patented) pipeline". Zk work in the same way.

* Business logic run in the Server ( Java Code )
* Business logic can change visual elements. Changes are replicated to the Browser;
* You can create visual elements using Java like I do with VWG using C#.
* You can extend visual elements using pure Java code.

For a developer perspective the only diference is VWG==C# and Zk==Java.

For me, "WinForms compatibility" is the only VWG mistake. VWG 6.4 have WinForms features and many bugs too. Must work in the same way.

We can extend VWG 6.4 but how many community users have created components for it ?
VWG is Open Source but how many community users have contributed (bug fix) ?

When VWG will be stable ? Every time I update my application I need to assert all features of my application. Is it the "*full set*" feature ?

No matter what Gizmox say, many VWG users afraid to upgrade their applications. That is fact. The questions is: Why ?

For me, simple, have many "features" that we don't need for WEB application.

My alert is only for it. We are creating WEB Application. Like Desktop must be only the concept and not the key.

Regards,
Alexnaldo Santos

4/28/2010 11:36 PM

	itzik.spitzen
1663 posts

Re: Main competitor for VWG

Modified By itzik.spitzen on 4/29/2010 3:34:00 AM)

Dear Alexnaldo,

I appreciate your opinion!

I did not say, at any point, that their pipeline is not unique or good; however, we do differ in the sense that we target enterprise data centric applications using desktop development paradigms. I believe that having more than one successful implementation for the similar server-centric concept is a good sign rather than a bad one :)

I can agree to the claim that I did not or even cannot look at Zk with fresh eyes, as we are concentrated and great believers of our approach.

People have the freedom of choice, and we do believe that in time, the implementations on top of VWG will show its great advantages for the enterprise market.

VWG is .NET Open Source (let me tell you something, there is really no such thing as .NET open source ;-)...) and this developers section behave completely different from the Java market.

Microsoft and .NET developers are not used to making code contributions and I must say that we have got a large number of contributors relatively, but we do have and appreciate a very supportive community which is constantly assisting us to make the framework better each day!

And again, from my point of view, it's really great to have all the options to choose from!

Kind Regards,
Itzik Spitzen