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Hey Everyone,
I don't usually post things on forums, but after spending a few weeks developing an pretty complex application using VWG I feel there are a few things worth chatting about.
Firstly, I want to say that this tool could be a game-changer. Like a lot of folks who have been around too long in this business, I remember the buzz when Visual Basic hit the market. Back then, to build Windows applications you had to choose between WinSDK+C, or use a 3rd party tools like PowerBuilder or Gupta. Then VB changed everything. The average developer could jump in and build pretty functional Windows apps with a nominal amount of training.
Fast forward 15 years and we are in a similar mess with Web 2.0 development. To build a non-trivial Web application you are faced with one level of complexity over another. There is no shortage of development tools and many of them have great looking demos (See DevExpress for an example). But actually building a real-world business application, with pop-up windows, large data sets, etc, and you waste a huge amount of time dealing with non-functional issues like javascript, html, Visual Studio, browser problems, state managment etc. A simple task like popping up a window, getting some data, and then refreshing the underlying page becomes a surprisingly complex and error-prone task. Even dealing with window management, auto-sizing and auto-docking is a pain in ASP.net. The stateless architecture of web apps means you are constanly having to re-establish your context on every UI interaction.
In short, Web development today feels like Windows development before VB.
And then you start working with VWG.
Suddenly, you are feeling good about development again. You can focus on the business rules and functionality, not some javascript error that pops up on a partuicular browser randomly. You can begin to do things on the web that would otherwise be a nightmare, like allowing right-click menues and doing contextual updating
It's hard to calculate the typical increase in a typical person's productivity using VWG. To be sure, you must be proficient in Winform development, and you have to think a little more asynchronously than a windows app, but I would guess a good WinForm developer is probably 5 times more productive than doing the same task in ASP.Net natively. In other words, what I can develop in one day with VWG will take me 5 days in native ASP.
This productively boost is driven in large part by two features:
- Stateful objects: Having state remain intact on the server dramatically simplifies development and allows you to hold complex object structures in place while communicating with the end-user.
- Screen Management: The tool allows for partial screen updates, it has positional UI elements and supports the WinForm model for docking, alignment and anchoring.
So now on to my concerns and comments.
Please don't be offended by my ramblings - I have spent some time thinking about this and I would like to see this tool make it in the big league; my intentions are to provide honest feedback to improve the long term viability.
- I don't think "Visual WebGUI" is the best name.
I don't think this name portrays the power or significance of the tool, and it sounds like a thousand other 3rd party components. I would have used a single name like 'RayDax' (as as example), that sounds affliated with Ajax but conveys some cool factor. I am not a marketing genius, but in describing the tool to collegues I can tell the name is not triggering a Wow response. Consider 'Silverlight' -- that's a (great) departure by Microsoft from their standard lame names like Visual Interdev and other aweful names. it may be too late to change the name.. but that's just an observation.
- The marketing message needs to dramatically emphasize productivity.
For example, the by-line 'bringing Ajax & Silverlight to enterprises' doesn't distinquish the tool from a dozen other Ajax tools. When I first found VWG, I had to re-read the description a few times to really get the message. The by-line should be something like "Enterprise Development at the speed of thought!" or "A Paradigm Shift in Enterprise Productivity"
- The Tool must highlight its uniqueness.
I think there needs to be a Flash demo front and center to illustrate why this architecture is so different. Maybe starting off with a line that says 'You've just entered the No Post-Back Zone...Please fasten you seat belt.. '
- Messaging needs to focus on Enterprise issues
I agree with the assertion that this tool is best for Enterprise application development, where there may be 100's of users, but not 10's of 1000's of users (like amazon, etc). With that in mind, the Silverlight demo last week given by Guy was not relevant to the average corporate user. For those that didn't watch the demo, it covered building a Silverlight-based application that linked to IMDB.. there was some fancy graphics tricks to be sure. Great technology. Wrong audience. What business IT depts want is to make systems more reliable, more responsive, easier to use, cheaper to build, easier to support. They handle large amounts of data. The data represents real things, like money and inventory. They need to handle documents and Excel files. They need to share data securely. They need to integrate and communicate and create reports. That's about it for about 90% of apps. Video and bouncing balls... hmm.. not needed. So the VWG Silverlight opportunity is to allow companies (and software isvs) to build Winform-like applications on the web as easy as in WinForms. A great sample would be a Silverlight form-designer or a data cube drill-down tool. Those tools are hard to do with dhtml, but would work great with Silverlight.
- The tool need to project stability, reliability and viability.
If you want IT shops to choose your tool, you must give the decision makers a good feeling about their decision. The biggest cost of development is the cost of labor, so the message about productivity is paramount. But you also need to assure IT managers that 5 years from now the tool will still be around and supported and not just another tool on the scrap heap (like gupta & powerbuilder). To that end, I think Gizmox is doing a pretty good job with the resources they have, and the SAP video is right on target. It would be great to do a lecture series around the States at .Net user groups (cheap marketing), and more out-bound email messaging to introduce the tool. There needs to be more shameless evangelizing..
There needs to be a way for third party companies to get something out of being a partner and advocate using the tool to their customers. Maybe a certified partner program that gives the community a little more credibilty and an opportunity to make a business out of it. This is especially useful in the states where a lot of companies what a local expert to call on.
The company also need to have a general US presence with a regular US phone number and office.. like Red Hat does here in the Research Triangle Park
We need to have absolute numbers on scalability. I know there are some tests that have been done, but maybe a video demo from Guy to actually show the web stress tool hammering a non-trivial VWG application. And its OK to say you max out at 100 users.. or whatever. A lot of corporate apps don't have that many users.
Ok.. I know that i have gone beyond my allocated time, but I had to get my thoughts on paper, and if it helps, then great. I would love to hear from other folks on these issues.
Keep up the good work, guys.
Mitch Stephens
Raleigh, NC |
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| Re: Some thoughts on VWG... |
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Mitch Hi
That is one piece of analysis. Thanks for your time; one can tell that VWG touched you. I am one of the founders, and I can tell you that we had spent a lot of time and thoughts on the issues that you raised.
VWG is a revolution, revolution takes educating, and we will push down the gas pedal on that, with our huge parent, Microsoft in the near future.
We had read your post carefully, really admire the depth and time invested, and every word of it will be considered. Some of your thoughts (the majority) are shared by us, and we would love to explore them deeper together if you like.
Thanks again, I really appreciate your time and efforts investment
Navot |
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| Re: Some thoughts on VWG... |
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Hi Navot,
What do you mean exactly by "parent" when referring to Microsoft? Do they now own Gizmox?
Regards,
Brian |
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